#5699: From Dawkins to "Karen": How Memes Really Spread

A biologist coined "meme" in 1976. Fifty years later, a Switch trailer screenshot became "Karen." How did we get here?

Featuring
Listen
0:00
0:00
Episode Details
Episode ID
MWP-5882
Published
Duration
25:18
Audio
Direct link
Pipeline
V5.2
TTS Engine
chatterbox-regular
Script Writing Agent
DeepSeek 4.1 Flash

AI-Generated Content: This podcast is created using AI personas. Please verify any important information independently.

In 1976, Richard Dawkins needed a word for a unit of cultural transmission — something that propagates from mind to mind the way a gene propagates through a population. He took the Greek "mimeme" and shortened it to something that rhymes with cream, deliberately echoing "gene." His examples were tunes, catchphrases, fashions, and ways of making pots. He had no idea he was naming the internet's native language.

The word sat mostly dormant until 1993, when Mike Godwin — of Godwin's Law fame — coined "internet meme" in Wired while watching ideas move through message boards and Usenet. By 2013, Dawkins himself was calling modern internet memes a hijacking of his original concept. He had a point: in his model, memes mutate randomly, like genes. In real internet culture, a person opens Photoshop and decides exactly how to alter the thing. That's not mutation — that's authorship.

That tension is where the interesting scholarship lives. Limor Shifman at Hebrew University defines a meme as a group of digital items sharing common characteristics, created with awareness of each other and circulated by multiple users. The load-bearing word is "group" — there's no such thing as a meme, only a family of copies responding to one another. Henry Jenkins pushed back harder, arguing the virus framing is too deterministic and strips away human agency. Shifman largely agrees: what drives cultural diffusion isn't the mysterious power of memes but the webs of meaning people build around them. That argument has political weight. If virality is a force of nature, nobody designed the thing that reached forty million people.

The historical record also corrects a common intuition. GIFs were never the first or only meme format — the earliest internet memes are pure text. Scott Fahlman's 1982 smiley emoticon, LOL tracing to a mid-eighties bulletin board in Alberta, ASCII art, typed abbreviations. Visuals arrived later: the Dancing Baby in 1996, Hampster Dance in 1999, then Lolcats and the image macro out of Something Awful and 4chan. At every step the carrier changed; the thing being carried stayed recognizably itself.

There's even a mathematical shape to it. Wang and Wood's 2011 SIR model in Applied Mathematical Modelling treats meme spread like an epidemic: susceptible, infected, recovered. A meme spikes hard, then tapers as the susceptible pool drains and the infected lose interest. The recovered are the people who've seen it so many times it can no longer land.

Then there's "Karen." The earliest traceable use of the name as a generic obnoxious woman is Dane Cook in 2005 — a comedian naming a type, no image attached. The meme proper arrives in October 2016, when Nintendo drops the Switch trailer and a Tumblr user screenshots a woman carrying a console to a rooftop party, captioning it as "Karen brought her stupid Nintendo thing to the party again." The subreddit launches in December 2017 and rockets from roughly 4,000 subscribers past 1.5 million. By March 2018, Urban Dictionary is specifying the ombre cascade hairstyle. A stereotype needs a costume, or it can't be deployed.

Downloads

Episode Audio

Download the full episode as an MP3 file

Download MP3
Transcript (TXT)

Plain text transcript file

Transcript (PDF)

Formatted PDF with styling

#5699: From Dawkins to "Karen": How Memes Really Spread

Corn
A mother on a rooftop party, holding a Nintendo Switch, being told by a stranger's caption that she has ruined the evening. That's where we're starting today.
Herman
That is a very specific doorway into the entire history of the internet, and I love it.
Corn
It's Daniel's. He wrote in with a whole thing about memes, so let me put it across properly.
Corn
His observation is that one facet of internet culture that has shaped societies is the use of memes to create visual anchor points. Things that lodge in the eye and sometimes spawn new vocabulary entirely.
Corn
And the part he finds strange. Technology has moved so far past the point where a GIF was the best available way to make a point. And yet they retain this natural appeal, this cache. He says he's noticed the word drifting too. Outside the strict original sense, people now use meme to mean any short, shareable visual that becomes iconic.
Corn
Then he gets specific. He wants to use the pejorative Karen. The term for a difficult white woman, as he puts it. He wants to look at how it gained a lot of its initial use by being spread as memes.
Corn
And there are three questions underneath. How did this phenomenon emerge, how has it shifted over time, and how can its fingerprints be seen on so much of what we today call viral shareability, even when the thing going viral isn't a GIF.
Herman
He's asking about the grammar of the internet, essentially.
Corn
He's asking why the joke we all learned to make in 2011 still shapes how we argue in the year we're actually in.
Herman
So let's start at the beginning. With a biologist who had no idea what he was unleashing.
Herman
Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, nineteen seventy-six. He needed a word for a unit of cultural transmission. A unit of imitation. He took the Greek mimeme, something imitated, and shortened it to something that rhymes with cream.
Corn
And deliberately sounds like gene.
Herman
Deliberately. That was the whole point. He wanted the cultural analogue sitting right next to the biological one. His own framing was that our cultural life is full of things that propagate virus-like from one mind to another. Tunes. Ideas. Catchphrases. Fashions. Ways of making pots or building arches.
Corn
Ways of making pots. That's the one that gets me. He's describing the transmission of pottery technique in the same breath as catchphrases.
Herman
And he's right to. A pot design and a joke travel through a population the same way in principle. Somebody copies. Somebody alters. Most versions die.
Corn
So when does it stop being biology and start being your group chat.
Herman
Nineteen ninety-three. Mike Godwin, the same Godwin of Godwin's Law, coins Internet meme in a piece for Wired. He's watching how these things move through message boards, Usenet, email. And by twenty thirteen Dawkins himself is calling modern internet memes a hijacking of the original idea.
Corn
Hijacking is a strong word from the man who invented the word.
Herman
It's precise, though. And it tells you the whole story. In Dawkins's model the meme mutates by random change and selection, the way a gene does. In actual internet culture, a person sits down with Photoshop and decides exactly how to alter it. That's not mutation. That's authorship.
Corn
So the thing he described as virus-like turned out to be deliberately engineered. Which is a real problem for the metaphor.
Herman
It's the central problem. And it's where the interesting scholarship lives. Limor Shifman at Hebrew University ran at this directly in her twenty thirteen book, Memes in Digital Culture.
Herman
A meme is a group of digital items sharing common characteristics of content, form, or stance. Created with awareness of each other. Circulated, imitated, and transformed by multiple users.
Corn
Group. Not item.
Herman
That's the load-bearing word. There's no such thing as a meme. There's a family of copies. Each one knows about the others, and each one is a deliberate response to the last.
Corn
Which is exactly why the Karen thing worked. Nobody made one meme. They made thousands of small variations on a person.
Herman
And that's the mechanism Shifman keeps pointing at. Memes spread by mimicry, where you recreate something in your own setting, or by remix, where you take the actual image and manipulate it. And then they diffuse through competition and selection. Except the selection pressure is now visible. The like count is the fitness function.
Corn
That's a grim way to describe a cat picture.
Herman
The cat picture is competing for reproductive fitness against forty thousand other cat pictures. And the ones whose captions fit the moment survive.
Corn
Henry Jenkins had a problem with all of this, didn't he.
Herman
He said the whole self-replicating framing sets his teeth on edge. Far too deterministic, in his words. It strips aside the role of agency.
Corn
Meaning it treats people as vessels for the meme rather than its authors.
Herman
And Shifman largely agrees with him. Her line is that what drives cultural diffusion is not the mysterious power of memes but the webs of meanings and structures people build around them. She wants less of the mystical virus language and more attention to who is actually making this stuff and why.
Corn
Which matters enormously. Because if the meme has a mysterious power, then nothing is anyone's fault.
Herman
Yes. That's the political weight of a seemingly academic argument. If virality is a force of nature, nobody designed the thing that reached forty million people. If it's agency, somebody sat down and built it.
Corn
So the Jenkins side wins.
Herman
I think the Jenkins side is more honest about how it works. But Dawkins's framing isn't worthless. There is something involuntary about how a tune gets into your head and refuses to leave. People feel like they caught something.
Corn
The feeling is real. The explanation is just too tidy.
Herman
Now. To your earlier point about GIFs being the old way. This is where the record corrects the intuition.
Corn
Go on.
Herman
The GIF was never the only way, and it wasn't really the first. The earliest internet memes are text. Scott Fahlman puts up the smiley face emoticon, colon dash close parenthesis, in nineteen eighty-two, to mark jokes on a message board so nobody would misread sarcasm. That is about as unvisual as a meme gets.
Corn
And LOL.
Herman
LOL traces to a mid-eighties bulletin board in Alberta, Canada. Also pure text. The visual stuff arrives later. The Dancing Baby in ninety-six. Hampster Dance in ninety-nine. Both spreading through email chains, both animated, neither one a GIF in the modern sense of the word, and both surrounded by a huge amount of plain typed text going the same route.
Corn
So the premise that GIFs were once the best available means of making a point is...
Herman
It's a softening. The historical record points to text as the earliest carrier. Emoticons, ASCII art, typed abbreviations. Then email chain animations. GIFs are one format among many, not a clear predecessor.
Corn
Daniel will be fine. He flagged it himself as something he noticed rather than researched.
Herman
And the deeper point he's making survives untouched. These things keep working when the technology around them changes completely. That's the mystery. Not the format.
Corn
So give me the arc of formats.
Herman
Email and Flash animations in the late nineties. Then the forums, Four Chan, Something Awful, where Lolcats come out of and where the image macro gets invented. Image overlaid with large text, white Impact font with a black outline. That template is one of the most durable design decisions on the internet and nobody signed it.
Corn
Then YouTube in two thousand five.
Herman
Then Reddit and Twitter. Then Vine. Then TikTok. Then AI. And at each step the carrier changes and the thing being carried stays recognizably itself.
Corn
Which is a lot like Dawkins's original point, ironically. The copying is the constant.
Herman
Now, there's a mathematical shape to this that's interesting. You can model meme spread with the same equations you'd use for an epidemic.
Corn
As in, actual epidemiology.
Herman
Wang and Wood in Applied Mathematical Modelling, twenty eleven. The S-I-R model. Susceptible, infected, recovered. A meme hits a population, spikes hard, and then tapers as the susceptible pool drains and the infected lose interest. The recovered are the people who've seen it so many times that seeing it again does nothing.
Corn
So we're all immune to some memes. That's not a metaphor, that's just true.
Herman
You personally are immune to the ones you've seen two hundred times. The joke is still being told. It simply cannot land on you anymore.
Corn
And that's before we get to the fact that the word meme is itself a meme, which is the part that makes my head hurt.
Herman
Shifman says it outright. The term meme is a great meme. It's been enthusiastically picked up by internet users. The word has undergone its own memetic evolution. Technical biology concept, then a noun for a joke, then a verb. You got memed on. I'm meme-ing. And then the whole subculture vocabulary around it. Memelord. Dank. Deep-fried. Moldy.
Corn
Moldy is a good one. That's a word for a meme so far past its peak that using it is itself the joke.
Herman
Which is a sophisticated thing for a picture of a frog to have generated.
Corn
So to Daniel's first question. What is a meme, and how did the word get from a biology book to a group chat.
Herman
A meme is a family of digital objects that reference each other and get made on purpose to spread. The word got there because it was the perfect word for something that didn't exist yet when it was invented.
Corn
Called its own shot.
Herman
Called its own shot, then got hijacked, and is now the standard term for both the joke and the stock and the social type.
Corn
Right. Let's do Karen.
Herman
The earliest trace Wordorigins and Vox can find of Karen as a generic name for an obnoxious woman is Dane Cook. Two thousand five, the album Retaliation, a routine called The Friend That Nobody Likes. The line is that every group has a Karen and she is always a bag of douche.
Corn
That is a real documented sentence. I want everyone to sit with the fact that this is the seed.
Herman
And note that it wasn't a meme yet. It was a comedian naming a type. The name had no image attached.
Corn
So how does it get an image.
Herman
Twenty sixteen. October twenty-first. Nintendo drops the Switch trailer. There's a woman in it carrying a console to a rooftop party. A Tumblr user called Joematar screenshots her and captions it. Oh, you know what, I'll just quote the shape of it. Karen brought her stupid Nintendo thing to the party again. We're drinking. We're having conversations.
Corn
That's the first Karen meme proper.
Herman
That's the one. And everything about it is downstream of what we just described. It's not the photo. It's a person reacting to a photo and attaching a voice to it. The meme isn't the image. It's the caption that turns a stranger into a character.
Corn
And the character has a haircut, doesn't she.
Herman
She acquires one. The subreddit launches in December twenty seventeen. r/FuckYouKaren. It goes from around four thousand subscribers to over four hundred and thirty-five thousand, and eventually past one and a half million.
Corn
Four thousand to one and a half million is the whole story of the internet in one number shift.
Herman
And the visual identity crystallizes fast. The first pejorative entry in Urban Dictionary shows up in March twenty eighteen, and it's brutally specific. A blonde woman with an ombre cascade hairstyle who wants to speak to the manager.
Corn
Ombre cascade. That is a level of dermatological precision for a joke.
Herman
It's doing real work. A stereotype needs a costume or it can't be deployed. You need to be able to point at a person and have the room understand without a sentence of explanation.
Corn
So by twenty nineteen it's mainstream enough to get nominated for Word of the Year.
Herman
The American Dialect Society nominated it in twenty nineteen. It didn't win. Their definition was the stereotype of a complaining, self-important white woman, typically a member of Generation X.
Corn
And then twenty twenty happens and the word stops meaning what it meant.
Herman
It turns twice that year. First turn, early in the pandemic, it's the anti-mask, anti-vax, I-want-your-manager figure. The person who won't be told what to do in a grocery store.
Corn
Stage two.
Herman
Then May twenty-fifth. Two things happen the same day. In Central Park, a white woman named Amy Cooper calls nine-one-one on a Black birder named Chris Cooper, and she does it while he's asking her to put her dog on a leash. And George Floyd is killed the same day.
Corn
Same day.
Herman
And the word moves again. Aja Romano's piece in Vox from July twenty twenty describes Karen becoming a searing symbol of white supremacy. The hairstyle drops away. The grocery store drops away. Now it's the act of calling the police on someone because they exist near you.
Corn
That's a genuine mutation. The earlier version was about being rude to staff. The later version is about endangering a stranger's life.
Herman
And the linguist Kendra Calhoun made the connection cleanly to Vox. Her point was that the impulse telling someone you don't have the right to tell me to wear a mask is the same kind of impulse as you can't tell me to put my dog on a leash. It's not about the mask. It's about being told what to do by someone with less power than you.
Corn
The complaint is a lever. The actual subject doesn't matter.
Herman
And then it becomes legislation. A San Francisco lawmaker, Shamann Walton, proposes an ordinance against false, racially biased nine-one-one calls, and he names it the CAREN Act.
Corn
Spelled with an extra E, so that the acronym works.
Herman
Which is itself a joke sitting on top of a serious policy proposal. The name had to be funny or the ordinance doesn't travel.
Corn
The meme ended up writing a piece of municipal law.
Herman
And the most recent move is the ironic one. Research out of CU Boulder found Karen now being applied to angry women of any race, age, or background. Which is the pattern linguists track across a lot of words about women. Gossip. Hussy. The word starts as a precise critique and ends up as a general tool for telling a woman she's not allowed to be angry.
Corn
So it has gone from naming a specific kind of white entitlement to a label you can stick on any woman who raises her voice.
Herman
Including women of color, including people nowhere near the original archetype. The meme ate its own definition.
Corn
And the word most likely doesn't have one origin, anyway.
Herman
Wordorigins is explicit about this. This use of the name most likely does not have a single origin incident or inspiration. It's a confluence of trends. Dane Cook, Mean Girls, Goodfellas, the Nintendo meme, an SNL sketch. Vox calls the origin nebulous.
Corn
There's no first Karen. There's a cloud of Karens that condensed.
Herman
Same problem Know Your Meme has with the whole category. Their line is that it's extremely difficult to nail down the first true meme. Even the first internet meme is contested, and a lot of early internet is just lost. There's no Garden of Eden for this stuff. There's a swamp and some of it has already dried up.
Corn
So Daniel's second question. How did Karen spread and gain traction through memes.
Herman
It spread because it was a name that could be attached to a haircut, and the haircut could be attached to a behavior, and the behavior could be attached to a real news story. Each layer made the next one travel further.
Corn
And that's the fingerprints question, isn't it. That's the machinery.
Herman
And the same machinery runs on things that have nothing to do with jokes. That's the third question Daniel asked, and it's the one with the widest blast radius.
Corn
Give me the finance version.
Herman
Meme stocks. GameStop being the flagship. Meme coins. Dogecoin. The pattern is identical to Karen. A symbol gets loaded with meaning by a group, the group coordinates, and the coordination itself becomes the thing people are buying into.
Corn
The story is the product.
Herman
The same thing runs in politics. Pepe the Frog. The Dean scream in two thousand four. The Ted Cruz Zodiac Killer thing, which is a pure meme with no factual content whatsoever and which Cruz himself eventually started playing along with.
Corn
Because denying it is worse than owning it.
Herman
Owning it is the only move that keeps you in the joke. That's the same regulatory logic as the CAREN Act. The name has to be funny to spread, even when the underlying thing is serious.
Corn
And social movements.
Herman
The Ice Bucket Challenge in twenty fourteen is the cleanest case. It's a meme. Cold water, a bucket, a person, a video, a nomination of three more people. It funded an ALS research breakthrough. A joke format produced a real scientific result.
Corn
I keep coming back to that one, because it's the strongest argument against the idea that memes are just noise.
Herman
It's the argument that the format is neutral. It's a delivery mechanism. Whatever you load into it goes wherever humans go, for better and worse.
Corn
There's a market where you can literally trade them.
Herman
r/MemeEconomy, where users buy and sell shares in memes as a satire of Wall Street. Which sounds like a joke about finance until you realize the actual stock market now behaves the same way on certain tickers.
Corn
The satire got outrun by the thing it was satirizing.
Herman
Which happens a lot.
Corn
Then Daniel's real question. Why do they still work when the technology has moved so far past them.
Herman
I think there are three reasons.
Herman
One. They're cheap to make and easy to read. The image macro in particular is a format you can learn in ten seconds. The visual does the emotional work in a quarter second and the text does the argument. Your brain resolves the whole thing before you've finished blinking.
Corn
Speed.
Herman
Two. They're participatory. You can't just consume a meme. You have to be able to make one, or at least recognize the ones that reference each other. That's why Shifman's definition matters. It's a group activity.
Corn
Belonging.
Herman
Three. They carry judgment without carrying a full sentence. A meme is often the shortest available way to say I think this person is ridiculous and also I think you'll agree. That's an accusation that fits in a picture. That's why Karen happened to the word and not to a paragraph.
Corn
The format survives because it does something no other format does as efficiently. It packages a social verdict.
Herman
It's a compressed accusation.
Corn
Which brings us to now. And I have to say, the current picture sounds like a hangover.
Herman
There's real fatigue in the system. TikTok users started complaining about a meme drought, and some of the blame landed on a cringe-culture community called SlimeTok, and a lot of it landed on the sheer volume of AI-generated brainrot content.
Corn
Brainrot. Which is a mouthful of a word for Gen Alpha slang. Skibidi. Rizz. Gyatt. Sigma. Fanum tax.
Herman
Brain rot entered circulation around twenty twenty-two to describe exactly that. High volume, low meaning, endless scroll.
Corn
And the response.
Herman
A loosely organized push called the Great Meme Reset. TikTok users frustrated with the AI content calling for a return to what they call classic memes. Nyan Cat. Big Chungus. The stuff from the twenty-teens.
Corn
Nostalgia for a decade people can still remember clearly. That's a strange place for a culture to be.
Herman
It is. But it's also predictable. If the S-I-R model is right, the recovered compartment fills up. The audience for any given format eventually becomes immune to it. And when the immune population is large enough, the format stops working and people reach for something older that they never got burned out on.
Corn
The meme drought isn't a failure of creativity. It's epidemiology catching up.
Herman
That's my read. And the AI content accelerates it, because AI can produce infinite variations of a joke, and infinite variations means no single version is memorable. A meme needs a scarce version to survive. If everything is available, nothing is.
Corn
The thing that spread by copying now has too many copies to be a copy of anything.
Herman
That's a real problem for the format. But I don't think it kills it.
Corn
Neither do I. Because the underlying dynamic isn't about the technology at all.
Herman
The technology was never the point. Text emoticons, Dancing Baby, Lolcats, Vine, deep-fried, brainrot. The carrier changed every time. The thing being carried is a human being trying to make another human being see something the same way. That's older than the internet.

Hilbert: Doesn't kill it. I had money in one of those.
Corn
Which one.

Hilbert: Doesn't matter which one. Four hundred and thirty dollars. I still know the number. That's the thing about those.
Herman
You were in the market for memes.

Hilbert: Everybody was in the market for a minute. A guy at work told me it was the safest thing he'd ever bought. I put in four hundred and thirty. It went up. I didn't sell.
Corn
And then.

Hilbert: Then it wasn't the safest thing he'd ever bought. I still hold it. Somewhere. I think. It's in an account I don't check.
Herman
You own a dead meme as a financial instrument.

Hilbert: On paper. It's not even on paper. There's no piece of paper. That's the part I can't get used to. I owned something and there was nothing to put in a drawer.
Corn
That's the whole decade in one sentence.

Hilbert: What's interesting is you two think the appeal is the joke. It isn't. It's the number going up. That's the appeal. The joke's just the thing that makes the number go up. If it didn't move, nobody would have made the picture.
Herman
The meme was the marketing.

Hilbert: The meme was the hook. Same as a good jingle. You don't remember the jingle because it was art. You remember it because somebody paid to put it in front of you until you couldn't get it out.
Corn
Which is Jenkins's whole point, isn't it. It's not a virus. Somebody bought the airtime.

Hilbert: Somebody always bought the airtime. The difference now is everybody can. Anyway, you're a hair hot on the second mic. I'll pull it down a touch.
Corn
There's a question here about whether the exhaustion is terminal.
Herman
I don't think it is. But I think the format is going through something it hasn't been through before. For the first time, the volume of new material is exceeding the human capacity to keep track of it. Every prior generation of memes had scarcity on its side. There were only so many people making them. Now there's no limit and no memory.
Corn
Which means the selection pressure changes.
Herman
Which means the selection pressure changes, and whatever comes out the other side isn't going to look like the twenty-teens. Nostalgia is a symptom. It's not the cure.
Corn
The misconception people hold about memes. I want to name the worst one.
Herman
Go ahead.
Corn
The idea that a meme is a joke. That it's a post you laugh at and move on from. The comfortable belief.
Herman
That one's wrong in a very specific way. A meme is a piece of infrastructure. It's a compression format for a social judgment. That's why it can carry a stock price, a political campaign, an ordinance in San Francisco, and a fundraising total for ALS research. A joke can't do those things. The joke is the coating.
Corn
The format is doing the work.
Herman
That's why Dawkins's word was right even though Dawkins's mechanism was wrong. He was describing a unit of culture that copies itself. He just didn't anticipate that the copying would be the most human thing anyone does all day.
Corn
One forward-looking thought, then, and I'll take it from what Hilbert said, because it's the right frame. He's right that the meme was never really the point. The number going up was the point. And if that's true, then the current drought isn't a failure of humor. It's a market that got flooded. The question worth sitting with is what replaces the format when the format stops being the cheapest way to move somebody.
Herman
Whatever it is, it'll look obvious in hindsight and absurd at the time. That's how all of this has gone.
Corn
That's the show. Our producer is Hilbert Flumingtop, who is currently adjusting a fader and has not yet told us whether he sold.

Hilbert: I haven't.
Corn
This has been My Weird Prompts.
Herman
If you got something out of this one, leave us a review. It helps other listeners find the show.
Corn
We'll be back soon.

This episode was generated with AI assistance. Hosts Herman and Corn are AI personalities.